Question about labs [Archive]

Sally414

02-23-2005, 10:41 PM

I was at the mall and the jeweler there told me IGI was a good lab.

Is it?

What about GIA or ELG?

Sal :confused:

cat

02-24-2005, 06:56 PM

Hi Sal,
There are a lot of labs out thre, and it is hard to know who to "trust". GIA is the "forerunner", they are the "standard". A stone with GIA papers is 99.9% what it is according to industry standards. However, they take a long time to get (meaning the stone usually has to be at the lab for 4-6 weeks) and they are more costly, so many stones are sent to other labs. One that you may not have heard of, but is growing and is just as accurate is PGS. (Professional Gem Sciences). All of the EGL labs are "indepentadnlty owned & run". The ones from overseas tend to generally not be as accurate, the best of the EGL's will be from NY or LA. (Thats an opinion held by many in the industry) However, remember, that grading is subjective, it is not an exact science, and no two diamonds are alike. What may get one grade one day could possibly get a different grade if submitted at another time. So you need to realize that a "certificate" is now "law". But you ask a good question in "which is the best". IGI, is used by many of the big name "mall" stores, and I honestly have to say that their accuracy is all over the board. Personally, I tell my clients not to buy IGI certs without having the stones looked at by an independant appraiser for a second opinion.

Any other help I can be, please let me know!
Cat

Bill Bray

03-01-2005, 10:09 AM

Sally,

Regarding all "certs" or diamond reports, the most important thing about them is the disclaimer which usually starts, "this report is not a guarantee...".

Have the seller verify the stones characteristics with the cert and you won't go too wrong.

...Bill

JLPJ

03-10-2005, 04:08 PM

Remember that ALL the labs have the disclaimer on their reports that Bill mentioned.

They are paid for their opinion as to the diamond--and they don't guarantee that opinion--in fact it can change if the gem in question is resubmitted months or even years later to the same grading lab.

I have always maintained that diamond grading/appraisals are an art rather than a science--that after having mastered the general outlines, it takes years to truly be able to give an informed opinion (appraisal) that has any true merit in the consumer marketplace.

megus

03-12-2005, 01:22 AM

I agree with Cat.

When I am buying diamonds, even from other dealers, I will only buy GIA, AGS, or PGS certed diamonds. Then, I would rather have no cert at all and buy from a dealer who I know is a good grader.

All the other certs are usually graded wrong in most cases, so I don't want to waist my time and money to order them in.

If I was buying from a store I would keep that in mind.

Now, that doesn't mean that you won't find some of these graded right some of the time, but you need a lot of personal knowedge to know if it is right.

Either that or you trust your jeweler and ask them to grade it for you in their personal opinion. In fact, if you ask them to give you their personal guaranty of the the grade you would be better off than with some of these other certs.

MEgus

dbucfan

03-18-2005, 12:27 PM

Not Familiar with PGS...any info?

Gregory Diamond

03-18-2005, 12:51 PM

Professional Gem Sciences (PGS) is a gemological laboratory, offering independent, quality reports on diamonds and color gemstones, whether loose or mounted in jewelry, for both the trade and private individuals.

The company was founded in Los Angeles in 1980, and the head Gemologist Tom Tashey has over twenty-eight years of experience working in gemological laboratories. They moved their main operation to Chicago about 6 years ago and are in the process of opening a new lab is LA.

I have been in the diamond trade for 18 years and my personal opinion of this company is they are one of the best Gem labs when it comes to consistency, accuracy and customer service. We use them exclusively when we certify our own merchandise.

You can visit them online at www.progem.com

Greg

dbucfan

03-18-2005, 02:18 PM

Gregory Diamond

03-18-2005, 02:47 PM

Thanks for the info...good to see some QUALITY competition for the big boys!

I think they are. :)

Greg

Rockdoc

03-20-2005, 08:18 PM

While AGS and GIA are the most highly regarded for what they do, the information testing results rendered are not complete.

They are certainly reliable about color, carat weight,clarity and color but the do not report the details of ALL the facets. GIA doesn't at the present issue a cut grade, although AGS does, however currently the cut grading reports an AVERAGE of the crown facets and pavilion main angles and percentages.

A diamond has 57 facets ( 58 if it has a culet facet) and consumers need to know all of this information rather than just averages. Further, analysis of light return is being brought into play and thus AGS is changing their cut grading guidelines for rounds and will shortly be issuing cut grades for fancy shapes. Information about light return analysis is available at http://www.gemex.com and http://www.imagem.com. Gemex manufactures the Brilliance Scope Analyzer and the Brilliance Scope viewer and is the leader of this technology.

AGS has a teaching CD ROM available to those in the trade which outlines how they will be applying the new standards they have offered for rounds and princess shaped diamond cuts.

AGS will commence cut grading changes on about May of this year.

AGS has also developed a modified version of the Firescope and Gilbertson Scope which they will use called the ASET.

Rockdoc
http://www.consumersgemlab.com

Sally414

04-03-2005, 12:30 AM

Thank you for all the responses!

Feydakin

04-04-2005, 08:47 AM

A diamond has 57 facets ( 58 if it has a culet facet) and consumers need to know all of this information rather than just averages.

Why?? Isn't that just a tad bit over the edge toward information overload?? I'm not against having all of this information available, but I think that saying that consumers "need" this information is forcing them to become diamond experts just to buy a diamond..

GGJoe

04-05-2005, 01:03 PM

A little prenote before I post a reply. Many, many jewelers and insurance agents refer me to do independent appraisals because of my reputation for being fair, unbiased, type B (lover not a fighter), and at least mean well. :)

In my humble opinion, this debate can often cause more harm than help to the consumer.

To boil the fat off this issue, let's make a simple translation. "Who's subjective opinions are better?" Granted, some subjective opinions are more readily accepted than others, subjective opinions are subjective and subjectivity is something that isn't written in stone, kinda like how not all bellybuttons have lint. Even GIA, who teaches the subjects, preaches consistency is the most important criteria of grading. Therefore, perhaps a study should be done by somebody out there to resubmit the same diamond over and over and over to every lab out there to see who's the most consistent!!??? :D :rolleyes: What would this accomplish and who's gonna pay for it and who's gonna take on the work it would take to remove all them inscriptions every time?

While I understand the "paper" has gotten more and more important today for various reasons, I'll put my subjective opinion by anyone else's, any day of the week. I guess it's easy for me to say (given my position) how blessed I am with referrals.

Again I also understand why the question is being asked in the first place, given how these subjective opinions are so influential on money and how much money fine jewelry commands.

There are surely going to be folks out there who disagree with my view on this issue. That's one thing that makes this country so great!

I do have a concern though, with the appraised values that are included with these "diamond grading reports" out there. You mean to tell me a loaf of bread costs (appraises) the same in California as it does in St. Louis and Knoxville, TN and Plano Tx and New York City? Perhaps tomorrow but not today it doesn't!!!

GGJoe

kristin

04-05-2005, 01:14 PM

I agree with the thought that some information is just and over load for the customers, have you ever trying to sell an architect? They come in with a list of exact measurements that they want the crown angle and every other angle in the stone to be, and if its off by a degree...
I'm all for educated customers it makes it easier to sell, but at the same time it can make it so much harder.

GGJoe

04-05-2005, 01:37 PM

"List of measurements"

LMAO great point Kristin. I think on paper, Phyllis Diller and Greg Miller are hotties. ;) (I might be showing my age here)

I've an old European cut diamond that is a complete ball of fire. Fantastic mix of fire and brilliance that saturates the diamond completely across and from any view, even in dim fluorescent lighting the thing dances up a storm. I refuse to sell it and get propositioned on a regular basis, usually by women!! It's common to hear "well please write my name down in case you decide to sell it." The list would take up a few pages! Get the point? Perhaps I should clarify the proposition is for me to sell the diamond!

On paper it's a class IV-B, dog cut that would be most likely overlooked and snobbed off by the architects and engineers out there. To clarify something, I'm greatful architects and engineers are sticklers and real particular about measurements and tolerances and stuff like that.

But so many of these stones are proof to me Mankind will not be commoditizing "cut" anytime soon. I relate cut "on paper" to battle plans for the Civil War. On paper, both the Confederacy and the Union shoulda won the war. While I don't deny the 000's and I-A's and "Hearts a 'far" and "super 8's" out there dance, too many "gear heads" overlook what the most important thing is. Performance.

GGJoe

kristin

04-05-2005, 02:05 PM

Sounds like a great stone, sure you won't sell it?
I cant tell you how crazy it used to make me when customers would come into the store wanting to recut their great grandmothers stone into some popular fancy cut. Or even worst pull apart some beautiful antique jewelry to make something "contemporary".

Feydakin

04-05-2005, 03:59 PM

kristin

04-06-2005, 09:22 AM

Sorry, I meant engineers are a pain (my dad is one) physicists too. :)

Feydakin

04-06-2005, 09:59 AM

I also hold a degree in structural engineering and my wife is an Aero :D

I can't do any of those jobs for long, too anal.. But I guess when you are designing bridges that's a "good thing".. I just really am dreading that diamonds are becoming like that..

kristin

04-06-2005, 10:09 AM

Thats true I'm glad our buildings and bridges are designed that way.

My boyfriend is a physicist so I've sold engagement rings to a couple of the guys from Fermi Lab out here and they can be fun too, they like to know atomic structure and all that...

GGJoe

04-06-2005, 01:38 PM

Kristin, I used to be an architect :cool: They drove me nuts too..

The guys over at Pricescope did do a pretty interesting survey by sending stones into the different labs for reports.. It's an interesting read the next time you are over there..

To be honest, I rarely log onto pricescope. I appreciate you mentioning it and find it interesting that someone would go the the trouble (and expense) to compare different opinions of others, to see who's opinion is "better." OUt of curiousity, was the same stone resubmitted different times to test the lab's consistency as well, or was it just a one-shot deal per lab? Again I appreciate you mentioning it. When I get time to log on pricescope and find this survey, it ought to be a great source of entertainment for me. . . Like the daily comics in the paper! :o

GGJoe

Joselyn

04-07-2005, 10:40 AM

Actually I think the survey they did was very interesting. Yes, there are parts you laugh at hysterically, but overall seemed to be well thought out and planned.

Here's the link to the survey, you don't have to be logged in to read it. I don't have a login and still can get there. Diamond Survey (http://grading.pricescope.com/)

Oh yeah, and our very own Dave Atlas was part of the survey team :)

Brian Knox

04-15-2005, 05:10 PM

Who do you rate as the best Gemlab taking into account quality and service?

When taking into account customer service, PGS beats the others hands down.

The other labs, you are just a number, get in line.

Whenever I call PGS, they are so helpful with whatever questions I have.

Just this week, Myriam responded to a poly request of mine where I was looking for a Yogo sapphire.

Unfortunately, with regard to customer awareness , our first time customers are often shopping exclusively for GIA or AGS because we sell a lot of ideal cuts.

Existing customers could care less, its a matter of level of trust.

Just last week, I sold a three stone ring with an F/ VS AGS zero cut center.

A long time customer, I never got into the 4C's of the diamond.

I simply told them that it is a fabulous diamond, because it was.

I never even mentioned or referred to the lab report until after the sale when I mailed an appraisal and included the AGS DQD.

Nice when it goes like that, because it doesn't always :)

Bearman

05-23-2005, 10:54 AM

I know PGS is better than most labs in turnaround time, but I believe the accuracy of grading be a separate poll.

GIA is about the worst in time to get graded but I feel is still up there with AGS as far as grading accuracy.

megus

05-26-2005, 06:39 PM

Well, I could tell you my experiences with different labs.

Every time I send in an EGL USA diamond to GIA, It comes back 2 grades less in color. Clarity usually the same.

Every time I have sent in a PGS Diamond to GIA it was the same. One time GIA gave a better grade (VS2 for SI1).

But your right, hands down for Service there is only one lab. PGS is head and shoulders above the rest.

MEgus

Steve Cantar

06-15-2005, 10:53 AM

Interesting in that comparison that EGL was rated slightly below IGI, and equivalent to having no lab report at all.

Steve...
Jade Gallery

Gregory Diamond

06-16-2005, 09:41 AM

Interesting in that comparison that EGL was rated slightly below IGI,

EGL should be ashamed.

GReg

GGJoe

09-13-2005, 09:20 AM

"EGL should be ashamed"

Remember Greggy weggy. Some labs, like some doctors, are just in it for the money! :P

GGJoe