What is a "deal"

[cat]

I have to let off steam and ask a question of fellow professionals.

I was attempting to help a good friend of my brother in laws. Looked for 3 months and found hin a 2.01 BR I/SI1 LEGIT EGL 60/60. 35 back. He has seen the stone. Yesterday he calls and says he has been quoted a 2.01 BR H/SI2 EGL Ideal cut in a plat solitaire for $10,100 net. I couldn't convince him that even without seeing the stone, it couldn't be what it "was", he didn't understand how I could "know" that. I've directed him here. Tell him/me your thoughts.

Cat:>

PS...The "alternate" stone they say they had is a 1.77 EVS2 for $9500. Might merit discussion on its own...

[kristin]

Is this stone thats such a great deal an EGL USA?

I would have him get his stone in (as long as he can return it) and compare it to your stone so he can see the difference for himself.

[Diamonds]

My advice would be to have the ring evaluated by a qualified independent appraiser prior to any sale. Has this friend actually seen the ring? Is this EGL US or EGL Israel? How many of these "great deals" over time end up being lost leaders?

Don't get frustrated with your customer, he/she is doing what they are supposed to do, comparing. Take the highroad. Present your best deal and in the end things will work fine for everyone.


Has anyone seen the Geico commercial where the young man is calling around to various car insurance companies? He keeps saying "quote please!" Sometimes I think jewelry shoppers think its that easy. Diamonds and jewelry are such personal items, we wear them on our bodies and they symbolize so much. Something that important in our lives deserves to be evaluated in person and compared side by side.

Your buying a diamond not a report and a price tag. Buy the diamond that lights up your soul!

Cat, your 3 month search is an example of what every jewelry shopper needs, a professional who is willing to go that extra mile and cares about their customer. You'll be there for them over the years where the bargain quoters may be off to their next gig.

Kindest regards,

Diamonds

Support your hometown jeweler!

[Diamonds]

PS. For those consumers who may not know, EGL Israel reports are generally waaaay off. Stay with EGL USA.

[cat]

Thanks for the "support" so far. What I was hoping was to get some professional opinions on whether this 2.01 HSI2 Ideal EGL could really be what it is for $9800 (I'm allowing $300 for the ring).

Heck, I'd be a buyer for it if it was what it was at $1500 above that.

Thats what I was trying to convey to him. Why would they sell to a consumer at a price lower than they could get within the trade.

Only explanation is that it AIN'T a legit HSI2

[JLPJ]

Cat:

The thing I've run across more and more is that most of the Mall Labs (I call'em that because they are so extensively used by the Mall Mass-Merchant jewelry chains) are fairly loose with grading standards, looser with polish/symmetry standards and I wouldn't give a Tinker's damn for their alleged 'cut' evaluations, either.

Problem is, with so many consumers buying into the idea that a diamond is a simple-to-understand commodity (because of the existence of a questionable document certifying nothing--read the fine print), it gets harder and harder for them to sort through just why they need to buy from the real pro jeweler at their price.

Your brother-in-law's friend is a good example of this based on your description of the potential transaction so far; he has used your services for three months--then used your best price to go out and beat you up on price as if you were equivalent to a car dealer. This 'every 2.01 carat is the same as every other' mentality is going to kill the consumer's appreciation for fine quality and craftsmanship in the end--and they'll wonder why older diamonds look so much better than the 'bargains' they're allegedly getting today.

[Princess]

I'm not sure if I should jump in on this one but isn't a certification a guarantee?

[cat]

Princess,
No, its not a guarantee. Its an opinion. And a subjective one. Most labs conform to the standards of the GIA grading system, they are the ones that coined the terminology we use today, ie: DEFGH... color and VVS, VS, SI, I... clarities. As no two diamonds are alike, they are much more difficult to measure that say, a Sony 19" TV vs a 20", 25", etc. And color is easier to determine than clarity because of "master" stone availability. Inclusions vary greatly, in size, placement, number and because of that even the same stone submitted to the same lab on different occasions can get different grades based upon the opinion of who is grading it. There are labs, that in the industry, have a reputation of being "accurate" based upon the GIA teachings. But even GIA can "make a mistake"--remember, this is not rocket science with applied formulas, it is an opinion. Yet, before you think "why bother", wouldn't you rather get the "opinion" of someone who is trained and looks at diamonds all day every day instead of someone who is a salesperson in a mall store, who may be on their thrid month on the job, having just come over from working the cosmetics counter at Saks?

That being said, as I notated above, there are labs that in the opinion of many professionals in the industry, are more apt to be "accurate" than others. GIA, PGS and AGS are two that come to mind. There are labs that often provide reports that a professional will not agree with, those labs are IGI and some of the EGL labs. All reports--"certs" as they are called, but if you read the fine print, none of these papers say "certified".

I know, its confusing. Its confusing sometimes to us in the industry. I guess my best advice is to deal with someone you trust, and a trustworty salesperson will have no qualms about your taking the diamond they sell to you to an independant appraiser for verification.

Cat :>

[JLPJ]

I'm not sure if I should jump in on this one but isn't a certification a guarantee?

If you are referring to diamond 'certificates' as guarantees of quality or grade, the answer is NO.

Read the fine print on any of the 'certs' out there from any of the labs.

ALL of them have strong disclaimers that they are neither guaranteeing anything nor certifying anything.

They are providing an opinion as to the factors recorded on their document, period--and they accept no responsibility for how the document is subsequently used or MIS-used. :eek:

Call up GIA's Gem Trade Lab and ask them about their grading reports and if they are a guarantee of anything involving the stone--you'll be very interested in the answer you get.

[Mednikow]

This thread brings up an important point. Everyone uses the word "certificate" when referring to the reports generated by the labs. But the labs are all very careful to call them "diamond grading reports." The previous posts in this thread are entirely accurate that none of the labs guarantees anything.

Legally, the word "certificate" does indicate an opinion made with certainty, or without doubt, and in that sense it is absolutely a guarantee. Since the labs recognize that grades are opinions, they avoid the word "certificate."

Most jewelers, including myself, loosely use the word "certificate." I fought the practice for a long time, but it has become so widespread that if a jeweler were to say "diamond grading report" in a sales presentation, I honestly believe that some--maybe most--customers would question to themselves, "What's he trying to hide? Why is he calling this a grading report when everyone else calls it a certificate?"

But that's okay. Most jewelers will actually treat the diamond grading report as if it were a certificate, in that they will guarantee the grade of the diamond. That's what a diamond professional is supposed to do...to advise the customer that this diamond meets their criteria and that it is accurately graded on the diamond grading report.

If a customer who purchased a GIA graded diamond from me were ever to resubmit it to the GIA and find that it comes back with a lower grade, I would absolutely offer to replace their diamond with one that has the grade I promised as per the GIA report, or I would refund the difference in value to them, or I would offer them a full refund if they wanted to return the diamond...I wouldn't care how much time had passed, because, after all, a diamond is forever, and my reputation is that important to me.

I think most diamond professionals would do the same thing. It's the diamond sellers who are not professional who would balk at such a practice, and that's why it's still important for consumers to find a reputable jeweler, either online or in a bricks-and-mortar store, with whom they feel comfortable.

Jay

[panachegems]

Cert! It should read "My Opinion"
Guarantee' When Pigs Fly! :eek: Read the fine print from any Lab including GIA or EGL.
And as far as EGL Reports, the only one I will even consider is EGL CA.

[Bearman]

People tend to shop around until they hear the best lie. Once you start disagreeing with them about the stone they are now looking at, you look like the bad guy having sour grapes.
I would just say buy it, get it regraded and he can call you back if it doesn't grade out.
We tend to take these things personal but shouldn't. Don't lose any sleep over it.
Why has it taken 3 months to either find him a diamond or have him make a decision. Who knows. :confused:

[GGJoe]

Met a chap yesterday who brought in his ring for me to appraise. Another jeweler here in town sold him the semi and set his "brought in" diamond for him.

He purchased the diamond online but of course the jeweler won't appraise anything unless they sell it and they refer me to do the independent appraisal.

He wasn't happy when I did my market data search using internet pricing. He also wasn't happy when he asked me (to confirm) "it is an ideal cut isn't it?" when I answered "no."

"They told me it was a Tolkowsky cut." I showed him a diagram of the Tolkowsky cut and asked him to add up the numbers in the profile and compare them to what Tolkowsky charts as ideal. He was baffled the numbers didn't jive!

Anyway, Bearman's exactly right. This chap shopped and shopped and shopped and shopped until he heard what he wanted to hear and then purchased it. Too bad he got it "done" 4 months after he purchased it.

Sounds like to me Cat this chap of yours isn't so much your buddy for making you bust your ass for 2 months at a $0/hr. rate. I'm by no means taking a holyier than thou stance here.

I had another chap have me get in a total of 8 diamonds, the last being the very 1st one I got in for him. I was to my limit already at 7 but when he called and said "I've decided on the very 1st one you ever showed me" I thought "well at least I'll break even on all the shipping charges." I got it in and met him and he said he just wanted to see it again, that there must have been a miscomunication. I'm like, "HUH?????"

I then confronted him and told him how it's $50 round trip each diamond, and this was #8. He said "I didn't realize there was mail charges involved." I told him, now sure he wasn't my customer "what do you think there's a damn diamond fairy who puts a requested diamond under our pillows at night for nothing? Now I have to eat crow and send this one back to my friend in Glen Ellen for the SECOND TIME."

So yeah these types are out there and they get better and better with "talk."

Today if I start getting to stone #3 I bring up them leaving a deposit to re-emburse me for the shipping expenses. Seems like this type thing always happens when I'm doing a family member's friend a favor too!!!!

Cat if it were me I'd cut bait now and not lose any more time/money. It's folks like this person who dont care if their friend's family member stays in business or not IMHO.

Biggy

[Bearman]

Biggy,

I saw your blood pressure rising as I read your post, but well said.

[denverappraiser]

There are many important problems here. For most people, including most dealers, diamonds are a blind purchase and for consumers they are one of the most expensive things they?ve ever purchased. They want assurance that they are being treated fairly but they are being told from the TV, newspapers, magazines and sales people that they are about to be skinned no matter what they do. It?s a very stressful experience. Most sensible people are not interested in turning themselves into diamond experts but they feel that they have to do this in order to protect themselves. They pour over the web tutorials, read the books, talk to the sales people and try to get a grip on what the difference is between a $5,000 diamond and a $10,000 diamond. It's not easy. In the end, it?s necessary to trust someone and to disbelieve others. It?s much easier to believe an out of town lab where you see their reports in several stores than to believe a single merchant.

A huge piece of the problem is the labs and the ?certificates?. Consumers like the idea of independent labs and there is a widespread misperception that their reports represent a guarantee of some sort or at least that they are applying a standard grading scale when neither is the case. The tendency of people in the trade to call these documents ?certificates? and to describe the subject stones as ?certified? has just given ammo to the liars and fools. This is the source of Cat?s problem. What?s an I/SI-1? Most people in the trade think they know. Most consumers who have been through the learning curve think they know but there is still remarkably little agreement about such a simple and fundamental question. Cat is describing a diamond. The other guy is describing a document. The consumer can?t tell the difference so he?s going with price.

What is ?ideal?? This one is even worse. Heck, with things like HPHT and fracture filling there?s even a fuzzy boundary about what is a diamond.

For the consumer, my advice is as follows: Choose your dealer carefully. It?s more important than you think and they are not all the same. I don?t know Cat from Adam and I don?t know what you will count as a successful deal. For most people, the issue is getting the best diamond, the best ring, the best support and the best shopping experience for the lowest possible price. This is unlikely to come from what Bearman aptly describes as the biggest liar. Use good shopping skills to choose the best dealer, then choose the most best products, then beat them up on the price. Reversing the order is asking for trouble. If Cat?s not your guy, fine, find someone else, but it?s a serious mistake to assume that there is nothing important beyond what?s written on the ?certificate?.

[kristin]

"what do you think there's a damn diamond fairy who puts a requested diamond under our pillows at night for nothing?"




That is hillarious :D